📘 Duck on the water

Anxiety, nervousness, and my job interview for The Dad

This story is about my one and only official job interview for The Dad. But it is also a story about anxiety.

It was a lunch job interview. We were scheduled to meet at a Japanese restaurant at noon in Flatiron (near midtown Manhattan). As we’ve established, at this time in my life I was somewhat desperate to make a career change. How desperate? Well, I was spending a significant amount of time every day writing (basically) “I want a career change.” over and over. So, yeah. Desperate.

And then, I stumbled into what could potentially be a dream job, leading up a new media brand for dads. Fatherhood being something I dabbled in heavily.

Of all the job interviews I’ve had in my life, I wanted this one to go well, the most.

My brother is a firefighter who lived in Brooklyn, near the border of Queens. So I stayed with him. In fact, to Vinit and the bosses, I acted like this was just a regular routine casual hang out with my brother and I’d also swing by the Some Spider offices for the interview, no big deal. But really, this trip was all about the interview.

I hate being late. Hate it with a passion. So I took the subway in to the city AT LEAST two hours early, made sure I knew exactly where the interview was, then walked down to Union Square Park. I sat on a bench and gathered my thoughts. For a couple of hours.

When it was time I made my way BACK to the restaurant. I walked exactly on time. “Totally chill.”

Vinit and Paul were nowhere to be seen. I waited and waited. Did I get some detail wrong? Wrong place, wrong time? My mind raced. At around 12:15p I was feeling so nervous I imagined that maybe this whole thing wouldn’t happen. They wouldn’t show, it’s all cancelled, etc. You ever do that just before some big thing is about to happen? I do that all the time.

But no, they arrived. Another meeting ran over. We said hey, had a few laughs and went in. The interview was ON.

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That was a lot of detail. I wanted to share the pre-interview stuff so you could get a feel for my thought process, which is also a lot. I’m a bit obsessive about things going right. I think about everything, a lot.

I’m an overthinker. I want to share because people don’t talk enough about anxiety and nervousness. Maybe some of you can relate and feel comfort that you’re not alone.

Being an anxious person actually helps me in a lot of ways. I was very much on time for this interview. I knew the key points I wanted to hit and a few anecdotes I’d love to toss in if given the chance. I had been preparing for this job interview since I created my five year corporate escape plan. I did everything possible to use this golden opportunity to my advantage. But in my head, I was still thinking about what else needed to be done. Overthinking. It’s exhausting.

So on the downside, these traits have a lot of negative effects: My mind is always racing. I don’t sleep well at night. I was super nervous for this job interview. That’s nothing special about the job interview in particular; I got super nervous for all kinds of stuff. I was basically nervous all the time. (Past tense here because spoiler alert! I’ve gotten help and found ways to deal with this in recent years, and lately, my anxiety and nervousness are 1000x better.)

I used to get so nervous that my hands would shake. Especially if I hadn't eaten anything in a while. At this specific interview, my hand was shaking while eating egg drop soup. I hoped Vinit and Paul didn’t notice.

And they probably didn’t.

Many people who know me may be surprised to read this. I’m often told that I seem laidback.

A few years later I was talking to a therapist about my anxiety. She said “I don’t know Joel, you seem like a very chill guy to me.”

“Ah nice. Thanks Karen… I’m not.” (Her name was actually Karen.)

In high school one of my best friends told a group of people, “Willis is cool because he doesn’t give a fuck about anything.” I casually nodded. On the inside I was thinking, “WHAT?!!”

Perfectly on brand, I’ve thought about that small moment for TWENTY YEARS. I’m now writing about it in a blog post about anxiety.

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I went to the Bengals game vs. the Steelers yesterday. When they announced the Bengals starting lineup, each player charged out of the gate, flexing, dancing, shouting at the top of their lungs.

Joe Burrow was last. When they called his name, he jogged out stoically with no emotion.

Joe Cool right? Joe Brrrrrrr. Cold as ice. Cool under pressure.

I don’t know man. I see Joe do interviews and nonchalantly answer questions or give short answers or even crack jokes and smile and I immediately relate. I could be wrong but to me I see ANXIETY.

On the Bengals first play, they passed. Joe got sacked. Oh no.

Second play: another pass. Pick six. OH NO.

I could feel the energy around us deflate. There were rumblings in the stands.

“He seems nervous.”

“He should’ve played preseason.”

There’s a thin line between “looking cool” and “looking nervous” and that line is success/failure.

(These are the same picture. Was gonna do an elaborate meme but use your imagination. Picture on the left is after doing something amazing and everyone is “WOW he’s so cool under pressure.” and the right is after throwing a pick six on first drive and everyone is “OH NO he looks nervous.”)

Am I picking on Joe Burrow? Absolutely not. I’m a huge fan. I could be wrong, maybe he has ZERO nervousness like the image he portrays. But I doubt it. He’s elite. He’s methodical. I bet his brain DOES NOT STOP thinking, analyzing, WORRYING. I bet he has anxiety. And we should talk about it.

There’s nothing more normal than feeling nervous. Nervousness is different than anxiety but they’re close cousins. Lots of people have anxiety too. And that is okay. If we talk about it, and talk to medical professionals when it negatively affects our lives, we can get better.

Not too long ago I got on anxiety medicine. When I told my doctor about it, he said something like the therapist said, that I seem chill.

“I’m a duck on the water.”

“Excuse me,” he said.

“A duck on the water. Calm on the surface but underneath… chaos.” And as I sat there on the paper-covered elevated doctor couch thing, I did a little flapping motion with my hands like a ducks legs kicking.

He just stared at me. “Oh, okay.”

I’m a duck on the water. I think Joe is too.

Did I bring up Joe Burrow in this post partially so that I could say that I’m like Joe Burrow? Yes, absolutely.

Are you a duck on the water? If what’s going on under the surface is too chaotic to deal with, it’s okay to talk about it. It’s okay to ask for help.

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Shaky hands aside, the interview was great. Being overprepared can be helpful.

Vinit is an excellent job interviewer. I wish I had more examples of his questions so I could share. The interview was very conversational. But even at the time I could tell that each bit of the conversation was meant to get at a particular piece of information.

He asked me what my boss’s reaction would be to me leaving 84.51. I told him that my boss would be disappointed I was leaving, because we were working on a strategic vision together that we were both totally aligned on. But he would be supportive because we had a great relationship.

He was asking what I was like to manage. It’d be a red flag if I bashed my boss and was super negative in my response. Even if my boss wasn’t great, you’d still hope the response would be constructive.

Those are the best types of interview questions, the ones that get the interviewee to open up and tell a story.

I could tell Vinit and Paul were a bit shocked at my IRL personality. They said as much. I was known as a comedy writer. They expected me to be very outgoing and over the top, which, of course, I am not. Especially whilst being anxious and nervous as hell.

They said they were excited to see how I could “riff” with Nick and Ben, who were in the office. (I think they were actually a little worried that I was so different from Nick in personality that we might not collaborate well.)

After lunch I went up to the Some Spider offices. I met a bunch of the leadership team. Nick, Ben, Paul, Vinit, and I grabbed a conference room and chatted about The Dad. It went well! Nick and Ben are fantastic talents. We collaborated well from the start. Nick is very confident, outgoing, and charismatic. True, VERRY different from me. But we saw eye to eye on the vision and things were lookin good.

Are you good at “riffing”? I prefer riffing while writing quietly in a room by myself. Here we were in a conference room in Manhattan while Paul and Vinit were observing. This was an extension of the job interview, make no mistake. Nerve wracking!

I had a couple other interviews. One with the lawyer I mentioned in an earlier post. Months before I had told him I couldn’t work for Scary Mommy unless they changed a section of their freelance contract. And he did! And now I was interviewing with him. Luckily he is a super nice guy.

After four interviews and a riff sesh, Vinit, Paul, Nick, and I went out for drinks. We ordered Old Fashioneds and we toasted The Dad.

I met up with my friend and writer buddy Mike Julianelle (who would go on to write a ton for The Dad!) and then went back to my brother’s apartment.

I replayed the day over and over in my head, critiquing what I said and what I shouldn’t have said. It was about midnight when I realized I was so trapped in my own head I completely forgot to eat dinner.

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I emailed the guys the next day, “I realize I'm probably more serious in real life than you expected but I'm seriously FIRED UP about The Dad.”

I remember overthinking that adjective before deciding on “serious.” Really, “nervous” may have been more appropriate.

And that’s okay. It’s okay to be nervous. It’s okay to talk about anxiety. And it’s okay to get help when your anxiety is too much to handle.